That fact comes from the British Colubmia Teacher’s Federation website. If you graduate with a Bachelor’s of Education and step into a job, the minimum starting salary is about CAN $35,000 (and those are 2001 numbers).
Over the past 15 years, the ratio of educators to students has increased by an average of 1.1 students (sources are here and here).
These are facts that the BCTF doesn’t exactly emphasize in their current job action for “improved learning conditions, restored bargaining rights, and a fair salary increase” (but not, I expect, precisely in that order).
DarrenBarefoot.com 
I don’t know about you, but I consider $35k to be a pretty low wage for someone who has a degree… I make more than that, and I’m degree-free.
Donna: $35K is a low wage for somebody with a degree and several years of experience. However, as this graph indicates, it kicks ass for your first year out of school.
This, I think, better illustrates the facts on teachers salaries in BC.
From the BCTF website http://www.bctf.ca/ResearchReports/2005ts01/report.html
“According to the 2005 data in Table 1, a new classroom teacher with less than one year of experience, hired full-time in Vancouver in September 2005, would earn about $42,700 per annum. ……. A teacher in Vancouver at the top of the salary scale (11 years experience) would earn $63,700, “
Melanie: I’m not certain that that’s a ‘better’ representation. For example, one might incorrectly conclude from that paragraph that the average salary is $53,200. Regardless, it is illustrative of the salary range.
Compare that wage to that of other four or five year professional degree programs and it doesn’t seem like a great deal of cash (Engineering for example). At the very least, the wage should follow the rate of inflation and it hasn’t. Teachers are professionals and should be paid as such. I worked as a new, freshly out of University, teacher last year and was scraping by to make ends meat.
Numbers are deceiving.
There are fewer teachers and more unskilled replacements being hired. “While 2,609 teaching positions disappeared, boards hired 265 more education assistants in 2004 over 2001. They are projecting hiring another 507 this year. This means that library technicians have often replaced teacher-librarians. Special education assistants have been hired to work with students with special needs, instead of teachers with the training and teaching experience… (here)”
Most importantly though is that the strike isn’t about greed. It’s about the right to negotiate the conditions of your employment; something the government has taken away by imposing legislation. The Premier said he would meet with teachers in his campaign and has flatly refused since. It’s about lies and broken promises. It’s about taking a stand.
Last year in my district there was a two week holiday for spring break in order for the district to save money on support staff (by not having to pay them). Tell me how this is in the best interest of students? The district also has scheduled throughout the year school closure days and has made up the difference by extending the school days and shortening break time (lunch included). I could rarely give make up tests during lunch because there simply wasn’t enough time to eat and write a test (food feeds the mind and I wouldn’t think of having a student write a test when they were hungry).
Just look at more then a few numbers. Talk to teachers who’ve been in the profession for years about the state of education. Look at the state of schools with more portables then classrooms (and offices in coat rooms). Compare BC with the rest of the county and realize that though once the leader, BC has now fallen (even behind Alberta). Assess the importance of libraries. Take into account the actions of the government in forcing legislation and cut cut cutting.
That’s all. Darren, I sincerly hope that you don’t think that the teachers are striking out of greed. Survey says “A total of 98% said that it’s important to have a collective agreement that protects learning conditions like class size and the integration of students with special needs.(here)”
Wade
Wade: First off, you raise a point I’ve always wondered about. Are teachers ‘professionals’? How are you defining that term? I ask because I rarely see unionized workers described as professionals.
But to the meat of your post. In the entire history of unionized work actions, I can think of very few circumstances in which the workers weren’t out to better their own situation (salary, working conditions, etc). This is only natural–we think first of ourselves. So, you’ll forgive my cynicism on the teacher’s apparent altruistic goals.
Besides, I don’t expect the teachers to defend the health of our educational system. That work should be done by the system’s consumers–the students’ parents. If they’re concerned about the quality of education, then they should express that concern in all the ways our democracy affords.
Regardless, I do think the strike is first and foremost about salary, and about the future right to strike for salary and working condition improvements. I’m not being critical of the teacher’s desire for higher wages–I’m pointing out that they’re already making pretty decent coin.
Professionals according to wikipedia includes teachers. In fact, every definition that I checked out includes teachers. Teachers have highly specialized training and not only belong to unions but adhere to a professional code of conduct and ethics. Further, all teachers belong to professional associations that aim to further the knowledge and training available to teachers. In my opinion, professionals have a responsibility keep abreast of trends and changes in their field. Teachers do just that though inservicing, courses, reading, conferences, professional papers/periodicals, and so on.
You’re right about union movements. Members take action in the form of striking to improve their conditions. That is one of the many issues involved with the current action; but not the only one. I was at the secret-ballot meeting two nights ago and not once was the issue of salary even brought up. From the top of the union executive to the newest members, class size and composition, and the right to collective bargaining were the major issues.
Rather then see the educational system crumble even further around us we need to take action now to ensure quality education for children in the future. This means having the right and opportunity to talk and negotiate with the government about the issues. The Liberal government is not allowing teachers to do this. We haven’t had a contract since July 2004 and now the government is forcing on teachers another contract till July 2006. No union or professional associate would/should accept such blatant disregard for the opinions and feedback of is members. Politicians, and the government itself, is a business; they do not know what is best for students and further they are not in the schools to witness the situation that teachers and students are dealing with.
Public support of teachers is higher now then it has been in years. Unfortunately parents are not part of a high collective or association. PAC (parent advisory councils) are local and do not have the networking capacity that teachers and districts do. In order to make an impact parents would have to organize on mass and I simply don’t see this happening (because of logistics not desire). Protests will be held and the support of the public (at least a portion of it) will be apparent, but this won’t occur until parents realize that there is a problem. The government doesn’t want parents to know what is going on in schools and this is evidenced but the legislation enacted by the Liberals that prohibited teachers from talking to parents about class size. 22 students in a kindergarden class is unmanageable and ridiculous. To say the the upkeep of the educational system is in the hands of the public (parents in particular) is like saying that it’s the responsibility of TV viewers to ensure reporters aren’t lying on air; it’s not, it’s the responsibility of the station and the reporter. Dan Rather even retired for his poor judgement. The responsibility for quality assurance lies within, and is supplemented with external support (in this case from the public).
Again, I urge you to keep in mind that the strike isn’t just about wages; that’s only one of several important issues. The ability to have control and give feedback to the government regarding education has been forbidden by imposing legislation that prevents communication with the government.
If you think that Educators are over paid, keep in mind the responsibility we bear.
If you’re looking to comment on inflated wages just look to the salary of MP’s, MLA’s, senators and so on; they give themselves raises without any public input. While teachers are (potentially) striking all next week MLA’s have an extended week off for Thanksgiving.
Wade
Thanks for your post. A few comments:
* Fair enough on teachers as professional. I frequently find the BCTF’s behaviour to be a significant departure from the likes of (from Wikipedia) “accountancy, architecture, medicine, engineering, law, librarianship”.
* Unfortunately, nearly every public or private institution in the west has failed to apply enough checks and balances to itself (from, say, Enron to the Catholic Church). That’s why external forces need to play a powerful role in monitoring and changing these organizations. It’s funny that you mention Dan Rather–he was brought down by the very consumers I’m talking about.
* I’m a little unclear on “blatant disregard for the opinions and feedback of is members”. I understand that BCTF and government representatives have met at least 35 times in recent months, but failed to reach consensus on a single point. Where is the ‘disregard’ you speak of?
* I never remarked that the teachers are overpaid, or that their salaries are ‘inflated’. I stated that they ‘make some pretty decent coin’.
* I’m totally uninformed about this legislation preventing teachers to discuss class size with students–can you point me in the right direction?
Regarding your last point… check this out. I think it should make my point a little more clear. I’ll comment on the rest later. Thank you for replying to the comments. Dialogue is good!
Wade
I recall the general issue now, just not this particular context. I’d support the teacher’s right to discuss their political beliefs in class. If they are, indeed, as professionals as you say they are, they’ll also fairly represent the opposing view to their students.
Just stepping in to comment on wages. I’ve got a B.Comm (a 5-year degree) and 13 years’ experience in Marketing. I’ve been earning $44K for the last 5 years, for a 40-hour week, 49 weeks a year.
Just so we have a market-driven basis for comparison here.
That first graph you posted in response to me seems pretty misleading — I don’t know too many full time employed people who make anything as low as what that graph is saying, taking their level of education into account.
[Granted, it does disturb me how many of the women at WISH (drop in shelter for survival sex workers) have university degrees…]
That said, I think the graph is taking into account unemployed and part time employees, which is a little different than comparing full time employed people to other full time employed people — which is how this SHOULD be judged.
Shockingly, a full time employed teacher makes more than someone who works part time, or who doesn’t work, regardless of their income levels. Go figure. 🙂
Hell, according to that graph, people in my situation (high school, some post secondary) make under $10k/year. Um… no. I don’t know anybody employed full time who makes under $10k/year. Even if they make minimum wage, it’s impossible to make that much working full time.
Because if that’s not the case then… wow! I make more than EVERYBODY! (And, uh, no. I don’t.) 🙂
Donna: If you want to find some other stats for wages for students fresh out of university, I’d be happy to compare. You’re probably right about this chart reflecting un- and under-employed people. That’s partially relevant, because teacher’s employment options are very good when they graduate.
I should also point out the obvious: that’s $35K for 9-10 months work. Any professional could easily supplement that to the tune of $5K and still have four weeks off each summer.
According to JobFutures.ca, the average annual earnings for a university grad with two years of experience is about $34,000. After five years, the average is around $40k. Bachelors degrees include LLBs, so I’d say the average recent grad makes less than $30k. Teachers have a pretty sweet entry salary at $35k for 10 months of work. Prorated, that’s more like $40k, not including generous holidays and benefits.
Darren: Hmm, closest I could find:
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labor50c.htm
Doesn’t specify new workers, though. Bloody Stats Can website takes too long to go through for more… 🙂
As always it’s human nature for us to deride and envy what other’s make for a salary. We never want to see someone earn more.
I think everyone in society deserves to make as much as they can, and if it is by forming a collective (Union) so as to have a greater voice than the better.
As a professional myself I often feel guilty for the salary I make, especially when I have to visit one of our factories and witness the back-breaking labour performed by our employees for barely minimum wage.
My wife’s a teacher, so I’m posting anonymously because she’d likely get mad at me if I did this under my own name. She’s been teaching in Vancouver since 1992, most of that full time, and if she’s grossing $60K it sure doesn’t feel like it (quite a bit goes into life and disability insurance, fees and dues, and pension contributions–all good things, but it sure isn’t $6000 a month for 10 months).
I should note that, unlike in many private sector jobs, the ceiling on teachers’ salaries is quite fixed, and the range of salaries is not exceptionally wide. You can spend an entire career as a teacher and not be pulling in the kind of money you’d expect someone with 20 or 30 years of experience in a field to receive, because you max out within the first decade.
Put another way: it used to be possible to support a family on a teacher’s salary. As with many other jobs, that’s no longer so. Teachers can make a decent amount of money, but it is far from exorbitant. And when the job gets continually harder (more special needs, ESL, and other formerly-not-mainstream students, fewer library and support resources, etc.) and the government that employs you repeatedly indicates that it holds your profession in contempt, it’s no wonder that teachers are pissed off.
Anon: Good post, and I should clarify a few things, because I’m sensing people jumping to conclusions. These are some things I think:
* Teaching is a hard job.
* Teachers are well and fairly compensated for their work.
* Elementary and secondary schools are mostly places to hold children until they’re old enough to work or get down to some real academic work. They’re a method of societal organization.
One other point: I absolutely agree that the job has gotten harder, and that wages are relatively fixed. However, teachers must share the blame for this arrangement.
If they want to work in a unionized setting, they’re going to have to work in a world of fixed wages. I’d much prefer to better reward excellent teachers, and punish (and weed out) lousy teachers, but teachers’ unions across North America seem adamantly against a meritocratic approach to compensation.
I should amend my post to say that new and intermediate teachers have a sweet compensation package. It isn’t as plush for more experienced teachers. However, I suspect that more experienced teachers can also work fewer hours, due to efficiencies in lesson planning.
actually, teachers didn’t want a union a long time ago…they were forced into one by the gov’t who thought it would be a good idea.
And furthermore, not every DISTRICT gets the same money. Vancouver is about the highest in the province. I work in the lowest paying district. Beginning teachers make about 37.5-38.
I’ll give you a run down on my salary..I’m a 4th year teacher.
per month I get paid after taxes….
mid-month: 1,190.00
end of month: 1,480.00
Expenses:
rent: 835
student loan: 220
phone, cable, internet: 200
credit cards/LOC: 200
bus pass (no car to save money): 130
RRSP: 50
home insurance: 30
These are the concrete bills I pay every month. I didnt include groceries, medications (we pay up front and wait for a cheque 4-6 weeks later. Birth control is NOT covered so all female teachers have
to pay the whole cost of it) and other incidental expenses
I teach learning resource. This year there are over 80 kids on my caseload alone.
In one class alone (its a gr 5 class) out of the 26 kids in there, I see about 15 of them. There are 2 kids in the class who are special needs and have an aide, 4 who are non medicated ADHD, and a gifted child. So basically this teacher has 4 kids who literally do cartwheels all day long and can’t focus, 15 of theem who can’t meet grade level expectations, and 2 special needs children who need help and have interesting characteristics that they have no control over. And the poor gifted child is sorta sitting there being frustrated because the rest of the class is so low.
While I didn’t go into teaching for the money, I would not like to have to go into debt year after year. Yes, we get the summers off but =I have to find a summer job because I can’t save enough money during the year.
I need to go to the dentist and have major work done including a couple of crowns but its not happening. While I have dental it only covers 70% of the cost and because money is so tight it will have to wait. Those crowns are bloody expensive.
Sorry for the rant all, I’m just very frustrated
actually, teachers didn’t want a union a long time ago…they were forced into one by the gov’t who thought it would be a good idea.
And furthermore, not every DISTRICT gets the same money. Vancouver is about the highest in the province. I work in the lowest paying district. Beginning teachers make about 37.5-38.
I’ll give you a run down on my salary..I’m a 4th year teacher.
per month I get paid after taxes….
mid-month: 1,190.00
end of month: 1,480.00
Expenses:
rent: 835
student loan: 220
phone, cable, internet: 200
credit cards/LOC: 200
bus pass (no car to save money): 130
RRSP: 50
home insurance: 30
These are the concrete bills I pay every month. I didnt include groceries, medications (we pay up front and wait for a cheque 4-6 weeks later. Birth control is NOT covered so all female teachers have
to pay the whole cost of it) and other incidental expenses
I teach learning resource. This year there are over 80 kids on my caseload alone.
In one class alone (its a gr 5 class) out of the 26 kids in there, I see about 15 of them. There are 2 kids in the class who are special needs and have an aide, 4 who are non medicated ADHD, and a gifted child. So basically this teacher has 4 kids who literally do cartwheels all day long and can’t focus, 15 of theem who can’t meet grade level expectations, and 2 special needs children who need help and have interesting characteristics that they have no control over. And the poor gifted child is sorta sitting there being frustrated because the rest of the class is so low.
While I didn’t go into teaching for the money, I would not like to have to go into debt year after year. Yes, we get the summers off but =I have to find a summer job because I can’t save enough money during the year.
I need to go to the dentist and have major work done including a couple of crowns but its not happening. While I have dental it only covers 70% of the cost and because money is so tight it will have to wait. Those crowns are bloody expensive.
Sorry for the rant all, I’m just very frustrated
whoops: sorry about the double post.
Darren, if the average teacher is making $60,581 a year in BC it only indicates that teaches are an aging group with years of experience. J
I have two children, the youngest still in the school system, grade twelve. I’m impressed by the dedication and commitment in all the teachers I have met. Dealing with children is exhausting and my two are no angels. Despite classroom time teachers are expected to attend meetings with colleagues, parents and students, prepare lesson plans, be available to supervise detentions ( even on weekends) all the time conducting themselves in a pleasant professional manner.
I have never known a teacher who was not burnt out by June . They need their holidays. The disgusting thing about the current dispute here in BC, is the disrespect Gordy Campbell has for teachers. He will not take the time, to sit down civilly with teachers, to work out a contract. Campbell’s disrespect for teachers is just the plastic film on the CD case when it comes to societys disrespect for children and for those who look after them, daycare workers, mothers, some fathers and teachers.
One thing that is missing from this discussion is the time perday a teacher tends to put in. I recently graduated from the University of Alberta’s Facult of Education, and I did my 9-week practicum from February-April. After about 3 weeks of putting in 60+ hours at school (and at least 20 at home) I realized why we hear teachers bargaining for better compensation. It is a HARD job. There may not be the physical danger that is involved for someone working in forestry or the oil patch, but emotionally it is draining. Not only does a teacher have to be ready for the day in terms of planning and knowledge, they must also be able to deal with any situation as it arises. In many cases, a teacher is the first line of defense for a lot of students, and in time they tend to become more of a counsellor or support worker than simply a teacher. This is definitely one of the things that needs to be looked into when teacher salaries are negotiated, not simply comparing the salaries to other entry-level positions.
Anon #2.
Just a few things – and a very interesting debate by the way.
I’m a beginning teacher struggling to get any work. The idea of a qualified teacher jumping into a full-time job is ridiculous – it takes the average teacher years and years to get a full-time gig, unless they are willing to go teach in a one-roomed schoolhouse with multiple grades up north – wayyyyy up north. And then if you do so, and start making some decent cash, if you decide to move to any other district in the province you start over again at the minimum.
If you add up those numbers on the BCTF website and calculate the average, it’s inaccurate. It takes many wage steps (usually between 9 and 11) to get to the maximum salary, which is approaching 60 G’s, and those steps happen only after several years each. The average starting teacher will be a TOC for three years, pulling in about $1000/month, then a bit more, up to about $1500/month. Then that TOC will take temp contracts, which will minimize their chance to TOC in the other blocks, so they’ll be frozen at about $1000-$1500/month again for about 3 years. Then, if they’re lucky, they’ll get a continuing contract, even though it won’t be full-time, and they’ll fight tooth-and-nail against their respected colleagues for more blocks to teach.
Beginning teachers have other part-time jobs to survive their rent and bills.
Chances are, the blocks they are teaching are different every year, so the prep time and marking time is unreal. Sure, teachers have two months “off” in the summer, but at least 3 weeks of that time is spent back in the schools prepping, and the work-week during the 10 months that school is in session are not 9-3, as people think they are, but they are more like 7:30-5:30 at best. Never mind the coaching/clubs that happen for free after hours. At 50 hours/ week (it’s more than that), for ten months of the year, a beginning teacher is earning around $18/hour. That’s not enough for someone who has at least 5 years of education.
Show me a teacher who’s pulling in $60,581, and you’re showing me a teacher who is 65 years old, has a master’s degree, and is working in the same district that he/she started working in in 1970. When teaching jobs were easy to come by. If the wages look inflated right now, as was mentioned in another post, it’s because the population of teachers is aging.
When I teach classes, they are always over 30 students, usually without a teaching assistant in the room, despite the students with learning disabilities in the room. There are CAPP classes and PE classes and art classes with over 40 students in the room – how is that even safe, let alone educational? Sometimes there aren’t enough desks in the classrooms!
The strike is NOT just for salary, it’s for class sizes and conditions as well.
Wow, great work Sherlock. Your findings are about as interesting as the meat-end selection at Super Valu.
Perhaps spend less time taking those freaky “Technical Writer’s Quarterly snap shots” of yourself and spend some more time finding something interesting to say.
I wasn’t trying to be interesting; I was trying to correct the distorted numbers out there.
Christian: No need to be snippy.
Anon #2: It’s inaccurate to call those numbers “distorted”. I obtained all of them from the BCTF’s own website. They are going to present the most favourable numbers possible, aren’t they?
Your anecdotal comments are interesting. However, you haven’t provided any links to support your arguments. For example, can you show offer some numbers on full-time hires straight out of university? Are we talking about 10%, 40% or 80%? If you’re going to make that allegation, back it up. To match your anecdote, the two BEd students I know got jobs right out of university–one in a Vancouver suburb, and another in the Interior.
The same goes for average teacher age and average actual hours worked per week. I’m prepared to consider your arguments, but only when they’re supported by some facts.
Hi Darren,
That’s one of the problems with the whole dispute, actually. There aren’t a lot of facts published that show the reality, and unfortunately most of the information published shows extremely favourable conditions. The BCTF has not done a good job on that issue, and it’s hurting them severely. I’ve looked at their website extensively, and unfortunately their numbers do not reflect the truth. If you went out to the picket lines and asked teachers if, on average, they make $60,581, they’d laugh. As Anon #1 says, those figures just aren’t there.
However, to make a half-hearted attempt, if we look at Vancouver, since that seems to be the district mentioned most in the blog, (though it is quite high-paying) and if you connect to the same link you cited in your first post, you can see it takes 10 steps to hit the max salary. Therefore, 10 steps to hit $60,669 for a Category 5 teacher, which most teachers are. Now the website fails to show how long it takes to make those steps, so again, you’ll have to trust me that it sure isn’t quick.
I’m not surprised to hear you had an acquaintance hired right away in the interior, because they have openings right now. (Though I am a little surprised to hear it was full-time?) I am, however, unequivocably shocked (if I could underline, I would) to hear one was hired in a Vancouver suburb immediately – for a full-time contract??? I’m surprised nobody has grieved that contract yet, because it’s virtually impossible to get onto any of the Vancouver school districts even as a TOC, let alone get a contract, and then let alone a full-time one! As you know, hiring is done on seniority, so your acquaintance either had a serious “in” that can be grieved by the union, or about 500 people in line didn’t see the posting.
You can see here: http://www.vsb.bc.ca/employment/teachpos/jobpostings/default.htm that there is one continuing contract posted, and it’s for what appears to be an extremely difficult class.
And then if you go here:
http://www.vsb.bc.ca/employment/teachpos/teachapplyemploncall.htm
you can see that to be a Teacher on Call in Vancouver, you must have very specific qualifications.
Similarly, if you go to Vancouver Island to Victoria, (http://www.sd61.bc.ca/hr/html/gvtatalert.html) another appealing location to work, you’ll see that the only TOC’s being considered right now have either Technical Education or French Immersion. Additionally, there are 6 temp contracts posted, only 2 of which are 1.0 and the others a range of very small part-time positions. You can also see the hiring process posted there, and it’s very obvious that the people who will get these tiny .25’s and .3’s are those “continuing contract teachers who possess the required qualifications to perform the teaching position, in order of greatest seniority.”
Now I can’t cite it for you, but I have a friend who is a TOC in the Victoria school district, and the seniority list for TOC’s is 8 pages long; she’s been TOC’ing for not very long, only 6 months, but 6 months of steady work, and she’s on the bottom of the 5th page.
Additionally, Saanich (also in Victoria) is only accepting TOC’s who have “French Immersion, French As A Second Language,Tech Ed and Spanish”, and they have two temp contracts open to the public, one of which is a .375. (http://www.sd63.bc.ca/employment.asp?cat=Teacher)
To give you another example, but unfortunately I can’t cite it and you have to trust me (risky, I know), I graduated in April of 2004 one of 36 people in my cohort, and one person got a temporary contract in a public school the following year, due to dance qualifications, one person got a .75 at a private school due to connections within that school, and the rest of us either went on the TOC list (we were lucky to be automatically admitted to our TOC list as it was actually closed to new applicants) or went to teach in Asia or England. None of the 34 of us got contracts, and you’ll have to just take my word for it that we weren’t a group of derelicts!
Looking forward to your reply.
Darren: Elementary and secondary schools are mostly places to hold children until they’re old enough to work or get down to some real academic work. They’re a method of societal organization.
Darren, I do hope that I misread what you meant here. It reads, to me at least, that you don’t see schools as educational facilities, but daycare centres until kids can go to college?
Please tell me I misread that.
Anon #2: Thanks for this. I’m hesitant to publish more information about my colleagues, as I want to respect their privacy. However, if you want to email me at darren at darrenbarefoot dot com, I can offer (what I know, at least) details about their positions.
You’ve made a number of sound points on particular school districts. I’m unable to get a clear province-wide or district-by-district picture of employability for new or recent graduates, but it’s fair to say that in BC’s biggest population centres, it’s hard for new teachers to get jobs.
This is a pretty naive point, but this appears to be a decent resource for jobs around the province. Obviously, the more attractive the location, the fewer the jobs.
In fairness, it should come as no surprise to recent graduates that there’s high demand for French immersion and technology instructors–that’s been an obvious trend for a decade.
What we really need is:
* Accurate and thorough statistics on teacher employment for new and/or recent graduates.
* A comparison to other degree programs.
Double: Well, to call schools ‘daycares’ is a bit strong, but I do think they serve a less vital purpose than many would have us believe.
My thinking here has been strongly influenced by Paul Graham (here and here, but neither articulate exactly what his book says).
Undeniably, schools help to educate humans in a variety of basic but important activities. However, they’re also holding tanks that enable adult humans to work without worrying about their children. Ironically, in generations past, kids would be out of school and working at a much younger age.
I’m not doing a great job of articulating my position, because I’m rushed and don’t have Graham’s book on hand. I’d suggest you glance through it the next time you’re in a library or bookstore–he makes a much better case than I can.
Not a bad wage for a 4.50 hr. day 4 days a week. ( southeast Kootenay)Plus spring break-5 days, Stat Holidays-6 days,winter break-2 days, Administrative day-1 and 2 months in summer.This is taken off the school day attendance calendar.
socket.
Not a bad wage for a 4.50 hr. day 4 days a week. ( southeast Kootenay)Plus spring break-5 days, Stat Holidays-6 days,winter break-2 days, Administrative day-1 and 2 months in summer.This is taken off the school day attendance calendar.
socket.
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“socket” if you think teachers work 4.5 hours a day then you do not know anything about the work the teachers do. They don’t simply start when the bell rings. They spent hours of their own time preparing for lessons and marking homework. If you factor all of that then teachers work anyware from 10-12 hours a day.
Undeniably, schools help to educate humans in a variety of basic but important activities. However, they’re also holding tanks that enable adult humans to work without worrying about their children. Ironically, in generations past, kids would be out of school and working at a much younger age.
I’m guessing that you don’t have kids, and you are not involved with any schools.
It’s a long stretch between “schools could be teaching better” and “holding tanks.” I’d also suggest that children’s ability to be in the workforce at an early age has nothing to do with being taught stuff, and I’m not even sure why you mention it.
As the parent of four kids who have gone through the school system, I have to say the teaching they recieve there is fundamental to what comes later, especially during elementary school. It’s not just a babysitting service so that parents can work, and if the basis of your opinions about the current job action grow from this theory, I’d have to disregard much of it as misguided and erroneous. And possibly even insulting to those of us who have worked hard with the school systems to ensure that our offspring are receiving the best eductaion possible. We’re not looking for holding tanks, we’re trying to ensure a society that will support both you and us in our old age, and that will be a better place after we’re gone.
Double: I’m not impugning any particular school system. Nor did I say that ‘schools could be teaching better’. I’m just pointing out my perception of school’s role in our society. They’re institutions which provide basic education to the population, and hold children until they’re old enough to enter the workforce.
Society is organized around work. As such, education has everything to do with a child’s ability to enter the workforce. In today’s workforce, they must be (at a minimum) literate, capable of basic math, have decent motor skills, etc. In our society, school furnishes all of those things. In earlier generations, children could work in part because we didn’t have these requirements.
At the same time, parents can’t remain at home to care for their children until they’re capable of caring for themselves. Thus, school serves a vital organizational purpose in our society. Marriage, for example, is another institution which serves an important organizational function.
i think it’s interesting that there’s been very little comment on darren’s point that it ought to be the parents who are concerned about the quality of education, who should be pressing the government for improvements. This is analogous to screaming “Raise my taxes!”, so perhaps that’s the rub. I don’t know of any parent seriously concerned about the quality of their kids public education. Teachers, by their dedication, have proven they can make this system function, and thereby undercut their own bargaining position.
personally, i hope that parents do become more aware and active, and that the current job action forces the government to withdraw its bad faith legislation.
Josie: My issue with your numbers is the fact that you only list your “take home” pay. My wife is a teacher in a Victoria district and she is always saying the same thing. “I only take home …..” It is rather misleading to list your “take home” pay as “after taxes” when you fail to mention the large contribution you make each month to your pension plan, your Salary Indemnity Plan, your BCTF dues, your local (in our case) Greater Victoria Teachers Association etc. These contributions are all things that benefit you and are not “taxes”!
I have to take Darren’s side on all of this.
I am sure that ANY of us that in our late 30’s to early 40’s can remember sitting in class rooms of over 25+ peers. I work in an area (Northern BC) where some of the professionals I know oversee grown men and/or women in excess of 40+. Believe me, a teacher complaining of having to deal with 25 children doesn’t hold water for a person that has to deal with 40+ adults, or so called adults on a DAILY baisis, DURING weekends, 12 months out of the year. I KNOW for a FACT, my father has worked in this industry for close to 20 years and made about 65K a year with only a 70% benefits package that included dental, medical, 50% pharm. and vision and this package he had to pay into himself along with his “optionial” life insurance policy. He worked 11 months out of the year, only had 2 weeks UNPAID holidays, and the other 2 weeks comprised of STATUTORY holidays.
I, personally own my own business so the wage thing really has me burning. I don’t have ANY kind of medical, Dental, or any form of benefits package at all … I pay for EVERYTHING out of pocket. For every employee I have, I have to “contribute” dollar for dollar to CCP and Workers Compensation and $1.40 for every dollar to EI. Here’s the kicker … If my business goes under for ANY reason, I get sick enough to be laid up for an extended amount of time, or get injured while working … I am UNABLE to collect EI, or make any kind of Worker’s Compensation claim. In short, I make payments to the governement and other agencies for services that I have NO RIGHT to if I am unable to work for any reason. So teachers asking for more money doesn’t hold water with me either.
That takes care of class sizes and renumeration. On to their ability to bargain their contracts free of the governments imposition to work.
Education is an essential service and, in my opinion, should be treated as ANY essential service. My child has the RIGHT to an education, it is NOT a privilege. The government took a stance to show teachers that they can not and will not use students and parents as pawns to get what they want. Unions have done much more damage in this province (BC) than they have good. The biggest problem I find is the unions protection of the “bad apples” … be a “nice guy” for 10 years then you can pretty do much for the rest of your time within the union. I have personally experienced a teacher with 20+ years seniority be continually absolved of lewd behavior in the classroom, lewd behavior towards students, verbally abuse students AND parents, be accused of indecency towards students, and generally be a “thorn” in the side of parents and the community. It took the COMBINED effort of a majority of parents and students, a long with two School Board members 5 years to stop him from teaching in our schools. Sorry for getting off topic a bit there. I am HEAVILY involved in my child’s education because I know I will not be able to afford his post secondary education when he gets older. So his education NOW will enable him to go where he wants once he graduates grade school. Teachers are taking that ability from him by this strike. Every day they stay off the job is one more day that he and I have to sit down and try to catch up for later. If teachers are so concerned about being able to negotiate their contracts again without being legislated back to work, hire yourselves an arbitrator that you trust and let that person bargain on your behalf, allow the BCSPEA to do the same … BUT LIVE WITH THE DECISION. I hear a lot about teachers standing up for and fighting for our kids right to an education, by staying OUT of the classrooms, aren’t you defeating the purpose of your own propaganda ?
While we are on the subject of salaries, I find it very interesting that in 2002 when the Liberals exalted how wonderful they were by rolling back their salaries 5%(approx $3500/yr)to $68,500/year, they gave themselves an average tax-free increase under capital allowances of $11,000/year. Nice net increase I’d say. Then this year as they took office they recaptured all of the roll back and all the automatic yearly tax increases they had been afforded but not yet taken for a net increase of 10.1 % Wonder if they offered the teachers who have been without any kind of an increase for the past seven years the same sweet deal if we would have a strike? Let me see, to be a politician requires…only the vote of the majority of those who even bothered to vote…much like a popularity contest, on one night, once every four years and boom…guaranteed $75000 salary and about $30000 in tax free perks and $11000 in more tax free money annually.
Hmmm…who do you think deserves to be paid more…the politician or the teacher who is in charge of educating our most valuable asset…our children. I am not a teacher but I am surely a concerned parent.
I don’t have a problem with the teachers asking for more salary, I just disagree with the “comparable” amount to what they actually do. Don’t get me wrong, teaching is NOT an easy proffession …
BUT …
Teachers do NOT work an entire year and unless I am wrong, it goes something like this for their “days off” …
– 2 months during the summer
– 2 weeks during spring break
– 2 weeks during Christmas break
– 1 day per month for a professional development day (these days are “supposed” to be used to do “catch up work”) Total = 12 days / year
– 1 day per month due to government holidays.
Total = 12 days / year
So, by my calculations, teachers get in the neighborhood of 3 months and 24 days off during the school year. this does not include “sick days”. So if you take this and factor into the days that they actually work, if they were NOT to get paid during their off time (which they do), teachers make $7,500 per month based on the 60k per year figure. I don’t see many other professions that are NOT union backed where you can get that kind of time off and STILL collect 60K a year.
But money, they say, is NOT the issue
and this is the part that I agree with Darren over. The teachers are LYING to you if they tell you that their first concern is the students. It is human nature to want more than you already have and teachers are no different. They can tell me they are taking a stand against the government’s ability to legislate them back to work all they want. If that was their ONLY concern, they wouldn’t be asking for the increase as well. I would agree with giving teachers a cost of living increase in their salaries due to the current economy levels, but that would be it.
When it comes to the arguement of wanting smaller class sizes, I could easily agree to that because there have been studies to prove that class sizes are a determining factor in a students ability to learn and retain what he/she has learned.
So far, I have given them an increase in pay, although not a very large one, and by smaller class sizes, I have also given them a decreased work load. Two out of three ain’t bad. THIS is how the teachers should be looking at it. I am certain the BCSPEA would look at something like I have set out FAR more likely that what the teachers are asking at this time. Give a little, take a little.
Think about it, if they would have tabled a MUCH more feasible contract than the one they did, they wouldn’t be “forced” into doing what they are doing. Teachers have made a “concious” choice to disobey the law and should be punished accordingly. If you or I as an individual were to commit a crime, do you not expect to face the consequences ? They need to fight for what they want within the law. All they are doing now is teaching our children, if there is enough of you that disagree with a law, you are above prosecution or from facing the consequences of ignoring such laws.
Darren,
I’m with Anon#2 on his comments regarding the ability to get a job right out of school. Perhaps you have two friends who were lucky or had great connections but the vast majority of new teachers are not in the same boat. In our school district on Vancouver Island, we have TOC’s who have been on the TOC list (at least they made it that far) for over 12 years. They make $160.00 per day, have no seniority rights and work an average of 3 days a week if they are lucky. In order to get a continuing position, you have to have had 3 temporary contracts within 30 months totalling 10 months duration. If you don’t manage this, you lose the first contract off the front end and start over again. As of June 2002, our school district went into major lay off mode, laying off 100 continuing teachers. What this meant for people seeking a continuing contract was that no full time jobs were posted as already continuing teachers had first dibs on any available jobs. As a result, I became continuing on my third contract at .45, less than half time. My other choice was to let my first contract lapse and take the unlikely chance that I might actually find a full time contract posted and get that job before I lost yet another contract off the front end. Regarding work load, in my first fulltime contract I worked about 70 hours per week. My Grade 6 class had 30 students, 9 of those had special needs and were working anywhere from 2 to 5 grades below Grade 6, 6 others had tested as gifted. What this means is I had to prepare and implement and evaluate three different educational programs for every lesson of every day – thus the 70 hours a week. When I do a Socials or Science project with my students, it takes an hour per student to mark. That 30 hours for one assignment of one subject. In my class last year, I had 5 moderate to severe behaviour students, 3 learning disabled students and no Teaching assistant. I was literally terrified to turn around and write on the board for fear that one of my students might get hurt. Tell me, is that the kind of class you would want your child “learning” in? This government is facing a crisis in education. Teachers are not greedy monsters. We are stressed out, exhausted and discouraged and there is just no arguing that our working conditions are also the learning conditions of our students. Sorry I cannot supply you with websites with facts and figures. But I promise you that these comments are a reflection of the realities in B.C. classrooms.
Carla
Hi Darren great to find this web log site. I have a comment that none of the pro strike people seemed to think was relevant. Teachers are breaking the law. This is terrible and totally unjustified under the circumstances. If someones life is at stake perhaps I would consider breaking the law with “civil disobedience” to save them, but for more money? Excuse me? I think you should consider the actions you are taking very carefully and stop listening to your union leader who only seems to want to spout so much rhetoric. I also take exception to Wader’s comment that unqualified Support Staff are taking away jobs from teachers. As a support worker who works with low incidence and severely learning disabled kids, I know that most teachers are definitely not qualified to do the job I do. Very few teachers actually choose special ed as a major and most degree programs offer very little in the way of usable training in this area. I have an extensive professional RN nursing background with exprience in pediatrics, psychiatry and geriatrics. I also have 13 years experience as an SEA and I work and live with special needs individuals. I have a passion to see them included in a meaningful way in our secondary school environment. To say I am unqualified is a joke. As a Cupe member I have the right to receive strike pay if I choose to support this action. I have chosen not too, and not because I am independenly wealthy either. My husband is currently unemployed so the loss of wages and strike pay is a sacfifice. I feel education without wilfull disruptions is a childs basic right. Many academic futures are at stake at this time. Your support quality education then get in there and provide the best quality by educating the kids and wait till the summer and then strike all you want. Even the NDP legistlated the CUPE school support workers back to work after our one week out on a legal strike in April 2000.
Isn’t it amazing, whenever people start talking about money everyone’s view differ. My wife is a fulltime teacher in Surrey. She’s a class 5 and with 4 years incremental experience. As the graph shows on the BCTF site, teachers receive an increase in pay annually. HOWEVER, as many of the teachers do not fulltime contracts its takes many years of TOC or temp contracts to receive the increase. My wife has been teaching for 10 years and is only in her fourth increment.
Granted, are the teachers breaking the law? Yes. But let us not lose sight of the fact that this is only law because our premier chooses to rule this province with an iron fist. Ramming Bill 12 thru so they can then take the teachers..to court. This is the same government that has been found guilty of breaking international labour code EIGHT times. This government has torn up collective agreements, after specifically promising not to, and has imposed settlements on thousands of employees.
According to international law, education is NOT an essential service, and the law designating it ought to be repealed. The International Labour Organization, a United Nations body composed of representatives of government, business, and labour, called on the B.C. Liberal government to repeal the law designating education an essential service, negotiate with teachers, and refrain from imposing settlements in the future.
It just frustrates the heck out of me, how this government tries to appeal to voters like they’re on higher ground. Our province is doing better financially today than ever before. So why continually impose zero zero contracts on the people who so strongly contribute to its wealth, and I’m not just talking about teachers, just ask the HEU, doctors and provincially assigned prosecutors to name a few.
Mr. Campbell talks about “round tables” puuhleeassee. In the long run, they may help shape the education system, but what place do they have in bargaining teachers contracts? Our education system is in serious need of repair. The requirments for graduation are less and less each year. I ask any of you here who are not teachers if you know what an “I” form is? They sure as heck didn’t have them when I was going to school in the eighties.
Lastly, with all of the money being saved by not paying teachers this past week, one really has to wonder where all those monies are truly going to go. I GUARANTEE that when it comes time to talk about budgets they’ll include it in the apparent surplus.
Let’s keep these posts quick, and I’m sorry if I’m repeating anything above.
1) Teachers are fighting for students rights (As stated constantly on radio, news, blogs, teachers, etc.). The Union is fighting for a 15% raise in wages… Can they please pick and choose?? Both will cost several hundred million per year, and we well know that you can’t have your cake and eat it twice.
2) There are apparenlty 577,158 full time students in our public schools, and 27,870 full time teachers (Not including any part time educators: nearly 8,500 more). This would lead me to believe that there should be at any given time 20.7 students per teacher. What’s not adding up?
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/reportfinder/publicreport_provincial.php
Thanks to James for reminding us all that the pot is calling the kettle black. B.C. Teachers are the only teachers in the world designated as essential service and that designation was one of the reasons the International Labour Union and United Nations imposed three recent sanctions on the B.C. Liberal government for breaking International Labour Laws. Our arrogant government chose to ignore these sanctions imposed by the United Nations and their subsequent request to repeal the law. Add that to Campbell’s obvious belief that he is above the law (Drunk Driving!!??)and you get the current situation. To Adam – the missing part of the math that you did is that there are many teachers in schools who are non-enrolling specialists. They do not have their own class of students. In my school alone, there are seven out of 21 teachers that work with students (Learning assistance, resource, music, librarian,school counsellors, Speech language therapists etc.)but are non-enrolling. In the case of the cousellors and pychologists who are also certified teachers, they may have up to 15 or 20 schools on their caseload. As you can see, that is the reason your math is not adding up.
Thanks to James for reminding us all that the pot is calling the kettle black. B.C. Teachers are the only teachers in the world designated as essential service and that designation was one of the reasons the International Labour Union and United Nations imposed three recent sanctions on the B.C. Liberal government for breaking International Labour Laws. Our arrogant government chose to ignore these sanctions imposed by the United Nations and their subsequent request to repeal the law. Add that to Campbell’s obvious belief that he is above the law (Drunk Driving!!??)and you get the current situation. To Adam – the missing part of the math that you did is that there are many teachers in schools who are non-enrolling specialists. They do not have their own class of students. In my school alone, there are seven out of 21 teachers that work with students (Learning assistance, resource, music, librarian,school counsellors, Speech language therapists etc.)but are non-enrolling. In the case of the cousellors and pychologists who are also certified teachers, they may have up to 15 or 20 schools on their caseload. As you can see, that is the reason your math is not adding up.
Of course teachers care about the students, why else would they become teachers and subject themselves to 5 years of university for a career with such a low salary? Though, if the rest of society also cared about the quality of education, teachers would be more respected (unfortunately in this society this means being payed more) and more highly skilled people would join the teaching profession. Teachers along with all professionals want to do the best job they can and given inadequate resources and unmanageable class sizes, they can not do their job to meet even their own professional standards. This is undoubtedly frustrating. At least their job would be rewarding if working conditions allowed them to do their job properly.
I have just returned to the province after 4 years away, and the difference in the schools can be seen from any perspective, and it is not good.
Note to Darren: Teachers do study the philosophy of education and learn many points of view including that which Paul Graham shares. Individual teachers cannot change the public schooling system completely and have no choice whether or not to join the BCTF union, but are doing what they can to make a positive difference in the outcome of each childs education. The great teachers I know will likely change careers within the first 5 years of teaching, due to the limits imposed.
Without the teachers taking a stand there would likely be no discussion of this topic at all. So for that alone I am thankful, obviously this is a subject that people have little knowledge about or time for.
I don’t think this is relevant to the strike debate but something to consider in your discussions: To be considered a BC Teacher does not mean you have a full-time job as a teacher. There are numerous TOC’s and numerous part-time teachers (mostly not in this position by choice)
In the highest paid District in BC, Starting salary for a full-time position, (which is not available at this time nor has it been since prior to 2000) is $39,312. After 11 years experience with a 5 year degree a teachers salary is $63,306 This has not changed from 2003, possibly longer. The maximum that a teacher can make in this district is $69,857 with 11 years experience and a masters degree, this is the salary cap. Years of experience is not calculated by # of years hired within a district but #of years working full-time within a district, TOC and part-time hours are calculated so that it can take around 3 years to get 1 year experience. Of course this is all before deductions.
I’ve just come off the picket line in Pemberton and this site has made for some interesting reading.I think I can appreciate most of the comments made. There are always different ways of looking at a situation like this current strike. I often have mixed feelings about the whole thing because I don’t think any one side is “right” in a dispute with this much rhetoric. One thing I do know is that the education system is being neglected and the children I teach are going to form the future of our society. We need to question aourselves about the kind we want. I personally don’t care about a salary increase, it isn’t even on the radar for me–though what is wrong with a salary increase? Didn’t the MLAs get 10.1% in June? The more I thought about the situation in education today the more it occured to me that if anything, there should be a lot more money put into programmes for youth. Not just in school but in after school opportunities. When you see the ****ed up teens on crystal meth you can’t help but think if they had more creative or athletic outlets they might not end like that. Remember that crazy guy in the bait car video driving 120 km down the street, screaming like a maniac and trying to shoot a gun? An extreme image to be sure, but is that possibly the direction our society is heading toward? Kids need positive support and mentors/guides/teachers to help them achieve the best for themselves.
One more thing—I spend a lot of my own money for my classroom and can’t even get it written off in my tax return the way a carpenter can his tools, let alone be reimbursed for it from the education system. Any nurses out there–how would you like to start buying bandages for your patients? I spend my own money so fun and creative things can happen in the classroom–the school system certainly won’t pay for it.
Lance Said: I, personally own my own business so the wage thing really has me burning. I don’t have ANY kind of medical, Dental, or any form of benefits package at all … I pay for EVERYTHING out of pocket. For every employee I have, I have to “contribute” dollar for dollar to CCP and Workers Compensation and $1.40 for every dollar to EI. Here’s the kicker … If my business goes under for ANY reason, I get sick enough to be laid up for an extended amount of time, or get injured while working … I am UNABLE to collect EI, or make any kind of Worker’s Compensation claim. In short, I make payments to the governement and other agencies for services that I have NO RIGHT to if I am unable to work for any reason. So teachers asking for more money doesn’t hold water with me either.
Lance, don’t expect sympathy for your situation because (pardon the all-caps) YOU CHOSE IT. You are an entrepreneur who chose to take on HUGE risks for the possibility of HUGE profits (eventually). That is the nature of being an employer. Your employees, who do not get an equal share of your profits, have an agreement to work for you under certain conditions. If you were to change the agreement without their agreement, they could walk. Teachers had their agreement changed without their consent, and that is wrong, regardless of whaqt you think about their pay and benefits. These are things we bargained and made agreements for. We don’t deserve to have them taken away from us without discussion.
This may be a dumb question, but how many hours a year do teachers work?
I can only speak for myself but I do not think I am atypical. As a new teacher in Grade 6 working fulltime I put in 65-70 hours most weeks. Occasional weeks might be a bit less and during report cards it went to 80. This is probably the top end of the scale but statistics I have read from teacher surveys indicate the average teacher works 55 hours a week. This does not include meetings, inservices, workshops or coaching committments. I arrive at 7:45 for an 8:45 start and stay to 5 or 5:30. I then take 1 to 2 hours of prep and marking home with me. I have personally spent entire weekends marking a big socials or science project. (about 1 hour per student if you bother to give them meaningful feedback). Summers are off but not as much as folks think. Most teachers spend 4-7 days after close doing paperwork, tidying, reorganization etc. The majority also begin working at least part time days the week before school begins.
Sorry guys this is another long entry but all this talk about what the UN has to say concerning whether or not teaching is an essential service is silly.
Refer to the Convention on the Rights of the Child http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/k2crc.htm
It is very clear that a right to an education is intended. Refer to Articles 4 and more specifically to Articles 28 and 29 for details. Many countries are too chaotic to provide this for their people. However the ideal situation for children around the world should be that education and the opportunity to change their lives for the good is their right. The sad thing in the middle of all this is that both sides are right to a certain degree. The Liberals have been pretty heavy handed in their drive to get the province on its feet economically after the free spending reign of the NDP. The decisions have not been pleasant and I understand the frustration. Exercising our democratic rights is important but is it democratic to defy a legally elected government and break the law, seriously impacting others lives. Democracy means I have a choice of who I choose to govern me. This has been decided for the time being and I am going to live with it. We can’t go to a referendum every time we have a disagreement with government to assess the majority opinion on an issue. No government is perfect but if I was a teacher and really cared about my students I think I could wait till June to negotiate so as not to risk the education of the students in my charge. I say get back in there, draw wages and in the meantime sit down like the intelligent people you are and sort out these issues. Many sectors of the work force have received no wage increases for ages. As S.E.A.’s we have received no negotiated wage or COL increases for over 5 years although we have received from the government a pay equity pay out that has brought our wage up $3 an hour. Anyway, perhaps we should quit worrying about our own pockets so much and lobby to see that UN ideal fulfilled. For some people $10 a year is too much for them to pay to see their children educated. I know that the public purse is not bottomless and in the end I pay for any increases anyway through my taxes. In the meantime I have a son that is in danger of not completing his University entrance requirements due to what I see as a self righteous and unnecessary job action.
Having been a teacher for 16 years, I can say that Carla’s hours are pretty standard. I’d like to add that I don’t know a single teacher’s family who had that teacher as a parent for the entire weekend during a school year. Everyone spends an hour or two marking on a Sunday evening or Saturday afternoon. Let us not forget the time that teachers spend checking the TV guide to see if there is something applicable to tape off of the History Channel or Knowledge network etc. When summer rolls around it is truly a wonderful time to FINALLY disengage our brains for a few weeks.
As far as the UN goes, it of course means access to the school system, not “non-stop, on demand classroom time on your terms”. The UN wants every child to be able to have a system of education they can access. It is not justification for heavy handed babysitting laws.
The teachers DID wait until the summer to negotiate, but the employers body refused to discuss anything substantial over the summer.
Finally, let us not forget that the governemnt is using students as pawns just as much as some people claim the teachers are. Every time we try to leverage our position (what else does an employee have to work with when dealing with an employer?) the government plays the guilt trip and refuses to change their stance. “You wouldn’t hurt a poor defenseless child would you?” Come on. play fair.
The government is holding out in hopes that the parent support in favor of the teachers will dwindle as parents have to deal with their kids during the day. The teachers want to talk, and get back to work…
Yes but Jenny Sims doesn’t. She just wants the complete package of demands ratified for else.
Will any holidays be forfeited so the kids can catch up on their education?
John said:
Will any holidays be forfeited so the kids can catch up on their education?
Not likely. The govbernemtn may say so and threaten it, but they would probably not follow through. There was a strike about 5 or so years ago in Ft. St. John, lasting 6 weeks at the end of the year. No extra time was added. In fact, because everyone returned dedicated,the scores on gr. 12 exams were actually UP fromthe previous year.
Just that you all know this: there are tons of immigrant professionals with university degrees and 5 years plus experience (by the way, not all of them don’t speak fluent English) are earning a lot less than 35K per year. In fact, the average annual income of an immigrant professional in Vancouver is 25K. If whoever making 35K complains about “making ends meet”, what do you think about those people?
Carol said:
In fact, the average annual income of an immigrant professional in Vancouver is 25K. If whoever making 35K complains about “making ends meet”, what do you think about those people?
I’m not sure what your point is, Carol. Are you telling teachers that they should shut up and be happy that they are getting paid at all, that there are “starving children in Africa who don’t even get to eat at all”? (thanks Mom).
If you want immigrant professionals instead of certificated, trained homegrown teachers, send your child to a private school. If you are happy making 35K/YEAR, I’m glad for you. If you want to teach, come on in and try it out. Carol, there are drywallers and builders in Vancouver making more than teachers right now. Electricians and pulp mill workers are pulling in more/year than teachers. Deciding to be a teacher does not equate with choosing to be a pauper. You can choose to pay less for teaching services, but you just might get what you pay for.
Hey Frank,
Don’t get upset. I don’t think it is fair for anyone to shut up anyone.
I agree with you that it doesn’t seem right for a drywaller/Electrician to earn more than a teacher, but hey, face it, that’s life, that’s labour market, that’s a personal choice in fact. A Teacher certainly can make a career change as well. Lighten up and move on.
I don’t remember to see programmers or marketing mananagers or Chefs or waitresses on strike and ask for public support. Do you think they don’t want to earn more?
I just don’t think it is right to inconvenience the lives of others in order to get his/her voice heard.
Carol said: I don’t remember to see programmers or marketing mananagers or Chefs or waitresses on strike and ask for public support. Do you think they don’t want to earn more?
I just don’t think it is right to inconvenience the lives of others in order to get his/her voice heard.
***
You are right about chilling out. I apologize.
The only reason teachers ask for public support is because we are a service occupation. We happen to supply a service to the public, so we are appealing to our clients/customers/consumers to help apply pressure to our employer. Other unions DO ask for public support – remember all the times the TELUS workers have asked for support over the past 10 weeks – its just that the public in general – and I do include myself – are too self centred to even notice let alone care, UNLESS it is an inconvenience. If a chef goes out on strike, they picket the site SPECIFICALLY to inconvenience the employer. They ask you to share the inconvenience of not eating where you want in order to help persuade the employer to change. That is what the teachers are doing here. That is the nature of a labour dispute, whether it is about teaching or cooking or working the telephone lines.
Personally, I think we have done enough asking for support – if parents get mad, GOOD – go tell your MLA to do something, to put pressure on the government to change something. The government can threaten to throw us in jail, but they should be prepared throw all 38 000 active members in jail. We have already shown that we believe in our convictions so strongly that we are willing to give up more than $1000 in salary already for our cause.
I will stop ranting and let others speak now.
Darren, thanks for facilitating this discussion.
Just to let you know the government has told continuing education principals (through the school board) that teachers are NOT allowed to help students make up for lost time. Ostensibly this is because it would support the strike- but it really seems designed to ensure the maximum political effect. Obviously they are less interested in helping students catch up from this dispute then they are punishing teachers.
just as an aside? any ideas why secondary class size data is not ‘available’ from the ministry? isn’t this a bit convenient as this is the group most often cited as having numbers over 30?
Frank you say you don’t have any sympathy for Lance and his situation as a business owner. If his staff do not agree with his conditions of employment they can walk away from the job. That is true. However, they could not walk out and expect to return to that job. But so can teachers, they could have chosen another job with more advantages if they wanted to. The employer sets the standards in all these business. Our governmet has set a standard you don’t agree with. Leave teaching then, don’t walk off the job illegally and expect to be patted on the back by your employer. Also, beginning teachers can go to where the jobs are, not wait around in the urban areas complaining about having to be a TOC for three years before getting full time employment. The truth is Teaching is a very attractive choice for universtiy students. The time spent is minimal in relation to the education required for many other professions. They can teach after 3 or four years at a basic degree level. They can switch from another degree and take one year of education specific training and get their B. Ed. or they can use their two months off in the summer to do a Masters program over a few years at many universities. Very few other professional people have the option of taking time away from their job for educational purposes without jeopardizing their employment. In the past, Education was by far the easiest faculty to get into and the courses were not as challenging as say Medicine, Architecture, Engineerling or Law. Another point, some Lawyers, Architects or Engineers with their own firms make big money, but their staff of lawyers or engineers or architects do not.
There has been a bunch of arguing over hours teachers work. Lets take the 80 hours a week figure. I’m sorry, I just plain don’t believe it. That is more than 11 hours a day working. I would say the average teacher would work about 55 hours a week. This is a very Liberal gift to teachers, as it is still over 11 hours for working days, and some time on the weekend. Now this may seem like a lot to some 18 year old kid working at McDonalds for 40 hours a week, but lets compare it to some other “professions.” Lets look at Lawers. My uncle is a lawer at a big firm here in Canada. He is up at and work by 7:00am. He doesn’t get home until at least 5pm again, a liberal estimate. He also goes into work an average of 2 sat. and 2 sun. per month. So thats 10/day, 5 days a week, add say 5 hours more for weekends, and we are up to 55 hours a week. Do lawers get 3 months off per year? I think not. 3-6 weeks, MAX, I have never seen my uncle take more than 3 weeks off at a time ever. Still not satified? Lets look at small buisness owners. I worked for a few over the summer, so I will use them in my example. They worked the average 8 hours a day, but had to be open saturday, so that puts them at 48 hours a week. Now, Often times there would be a sudden rush of work to do over the week. They would go in often at night to finish this work, or sometimes on Sunday. On average, I would give them 55 hours a week, once all was said and done. STILL not satisfied? My father worked for the government of BC. He put in 40 hour weeks, for which he was paid under $40 000/year. (His job was for a town in BC) Now if we count in all of the time for meetings, UNPAID overtime, and all of the extra work involved, he works at the very least 55 hours a week. (for a while he was up to 60-65, but it was too much for him) What kind of vacation did he recieve? 6 weeks. Now, I am sick and tired of hearing teacher griping and whineing about their wages and vacation time. Now as to work conditions, I would challege them to work at a Walmart, or a Costco during Christmas time in the customer complaints office, or perhaps try to be a construction worker on a major 2 lane highway in BC (in 30 degree weather) or perhaps a police officer during spring break… the fact is everyone can pick out at least 1 thing they don’t like about their jobs, some a lot more than just 1, but we don’t go on an illegal strike or shut down cities because of it. When I was in elementary school, we had a class of 33 in grade 4. Teachers managed it back then, they can today too. Quit complaining and get back to work, there is no such thing as THE PERFECT JOB, so quit trying to pretend it exists.
Ty said “the fact is everyone can pick out at least one thing they don’t like about their jobs ….. but we don’t go on a illegal strike because of it.”
You seem to have missed the point, or choose to disbelieve it as many do, that teacher’s working conditions are also student’s learning conditions. We see too many kids falling through the cracks and we care about that even if the cynical out there choose to believe that’s just rhetoric. I currently have in my class, one hearing impaired, learning disabled child, one child that is suffering from neurofibromatosis and cannot produce written output, one mentally challenged child that the ministry has said cannot receive learning assistance (a write-off I guess!?), two severely learning disabled students that must have everything adapted and modified for them and three other students with learning disabilities that are not severe enough to allow them to be designated by the ministries increasingly restrictive standards. Nevertheless, they do need significant amounts of extra help. Not that designation gives them any extra help in the classroom as Learning disabled students do not currently qualify for any funding at all. At best they might be “prioritized” for the severly cut-back and completely inadequate learning assistance time available to the school. This means they might receive two or three 30 minutes chunks of help per week in one subject, usually reading. This might last 8 weeks or so.
Then they are supposedly “properly serviced” for the year.
And then there are the “normal” and gifted kids in the classroom. I guess they just have to teach themselves. I would happily go back right now with 0, 0 and 0 for a wage deal if the Liberals would cough up money for more T.A. and learning assistance time. Our kids are not getting what they need!!
Carla I do agree with you that the designation situation is getting out of hand. I find that even in my role as an SEA. The ministry seems to not be interested in funding services for Learning disabled and mentally challenged children even with adequate documentation. We had one student who initially required over 30 hours a week of support dropped to 15 and only after a lot of lobbying by parents and staff did the school board in our area come up with at least 27.5 hours a week. Which was what the student needed due to health and safety risks to herself and others around her. She often required more than one staff to properly manage very difficult behaviour. My own son was designated Gifted Learning Disabled and that threw everyone off even the teachers. However, I do not think that this is the thrust of the present job action as I understand it. That is a funding issue to be negotiated by the School Boards with the Province and implemented at the individual district level. I know there are many districts that seem to have more hours available for this kind of support than the one I work for. However, I do support individuals with designations in the regular classes and I do the supporting and modifying under the oversite of a teacher case manager. The classroom teacher is not really involved all that much except to view what the students are doing and general classroom attention. They are not even obligated to mark the work.
I have heard it from some teachers that they are only in it for the holidays and wages. That is sad but I would imagine their students can pick up on that attitude and it must affect their attitudes as well. Unfortunately not all teachers are good teachers and will always struggle. It is the same in nursing I have found from personal and professional experience in that area.
Carla said: “I would happily go back right now with 0, 0 and 0 for a wage deal if the Liberals would cough up money for more T.A. and learning assistance time. Our kids are not getting what they need!!”
I think that if the Liberals had a tabled offer with no teacher wage increase, but an increase in funding for “Special Needs” children, They might accept that sort of offer. Lets face it, the province of BC is not made of money, there isn’t enough to give all teachers an increase and at the same time make a deal for decreased class size. 1 big reason for it: If you decrease class size, you have to hire more teachers. Hire more teachers + wage increase + Special needs funding increase = Not going to happen. There is not enough money for it. Now, if all the teachers were to take your view on wage increase, the province would be in a MUCH better place.
Joy said: Very few other professions can take the time off to improve
*** you are right, but don’t forget – we AREN’T PAID in the summer. They don’t get the time off, but they don’t go 10 weeks without a paycheque either. Teachers could leave, AND THEY have – in large numbers. You are hearing the voices of the ones who don’t want to have to leave the communities they love – partly for self, admittedly, but partly out of a sense of duty for the kids we teach – honestly.***
In the past, Education was by far the easiest faculty to get into and the courses were not as challenging as say Medicine, Architecture, Engineerling or Law.
***And they were/are paid substantially more for the most part***
Another point, some Lawyers, Architects or Engineers with their own firms make big money, but their staff of lawyers or engineers or architects do not.
***Some principals make big money, but their teaching staff (usually less experienced and/or educated) do not.
As for Ty’s comment about not complaining, Doesn’t anyone have a problem with a government who doesn’t even follow the judgement of its courts? The government makes a law, the labour relations board and other judges rule it illegal, so they make a new law.
Teachers working 80 hours per week … not a chance. That works out to 11.4 hours per day … INCLUDING Saturday and Sunday.
I run a business in Northern BC (2 hrs North of Fort St. John) that deals with the oilfield industry. It includes a motel and “man-camp” for workers out in the oilfield. I also operate and manage the Provincial Park located across the highway from us. I also own a resturaunt in the area that services the enormous amount of truckers working in the oilfied, as well as tourists travelling the Alaska Highway. A “normal” work day for me is between 12-14 hours from Monday to Friday. The weekends are, on average, a little lighter but not much. During the summer months, These hours are at a consistant 16 hours per day because those are my PM (preventative maintenance) months. Up here we are lucky to get 3 or 4 months of “favourable” weather. So that works out to be around 85 – 120 hours a week, depending on the season and circumstances. The business is open from 5am – 10pm every day 364 days a year. Christams Day is the only exception, but I am open for 5 hours during that day. During Chrstmas, my wife and I work for the week that we give ALL our employees off so they can be with their families for the holidays.
I am NOT looking for sympathy and as someone has said, it was my CHOICE to do what I do for a living. And I agree with whoever said, if you don’t like being a teacher, then leave the profession. You CHOSE to be a teacher and being a teacher entails ALL the problems that come with it.
All these people that are talking about how long they have be on a ToC list or take temporary positions until a full time position opens up, what I have to say aboutr that, move to where the work is. Plain and simple. Up here we, do not have enough qualified people to fill the majority of “professiona;” positions. We have a shortage of doctors, lawyers, nurses, and yes … teachers … but because the climate up here is “undesireable” (yes, it can be a little harsh) and not close to major cities, the “professionals” don’t want to live here. So what ? Up here, you would get a Northern Living Allowance. Up here you get FRESH air, not smog filtered. Up her, you get wildlife, and not the kind lurking around alleyways. Up here, you can say hello to a stranger without them scurrying aways from you.
Frank I am really not sure what you are trying to say. Teachers salaries are not on an hourly day by day basis. It is a contract and should be used to cover the summer months unless you want to work over the summer. I know I do as an SEA. The whole thing about the admin getting more than the teachers really went over my head. Sorry.
Frank I am really not sure what you are trying to say. Teachers salaries are not on an hourly day by day basis. It is a contract and should be used to cover the summer months unless you want to work over the summer. I know I do as an SEA. The whole thing about the admin getting more than the teachers really went over my head. Sorry.
Joy, when you said that some lawyers make little money and others make more, I was simply pointing out that the same thing happens in teaching. When you said that at University, the Education program was easier, I pointed out that you were probably right, but then again those other jobs also ended up paying more.
Lance, I know what you mean about Northern living, as I am from PG – I guess we’re both beyond Hope!
I have a huge problem with people who break the law to get their way teaching my kids how to solve problems.
Frank I do not agree with you that the other jobs end up paying more as a completely true statement. Perhaps in some cases they do. They also have to go to school longer and pay more for their education than teachers do too.
The top teachers salary in BC, as reported by the BCTF’s webiste AND the BCSPEA site state that after 11 years (ELEVEN) years that a teacher makes 75K a year. So after only 11 years in a profession, they are at the top of their pay scale.
Some people, my father for example, have been working in their corresponding industries for 2 or 3 times that long. My father was a self-employed welder for 20 years before he was pulling in the coin similar to teachers salaries.
This little strike has saved the government MILLIONS … and what do you think they are going to be paying teachers with when you return to work ? Your OWN money.
Lance said – “what do you think they are going to pay you with – your own money.”
Lance, you say that as if it is a revelation to us. We are quite aware that we have saved the government millions. We are not Stupid. As I have been saying, this protest was much more about working/learning conditions and the deterioration of our education system and I think you have just proved the point. Our students mean enough to us that we are willing to sacrifice money out of our own pockets to try to get improvements. This protest was also about holding this government to account for flagrant misuse and abuse of their legislative authority. When you give the government the right to legislate, you expect them to do it with fairness, integrity and responsibility and in a way that benefits the human rights and welfare of a majority of people. This government has consistently and repeatedly used their legislative authority to punish, repress and manipulate people with no respect for their lawful collective bargaining rights. This has happened not just to teachers, but to doctors, crown counsels, and nurses to name just a few. Don’t you find it interesting that the government’s own 400 prosecutors said they would refuse to prosecute if criminal charges were brought against teachers? They were just one group where the government completed binding abritration then walked away from the table, and legislated a bill saying they didn’t have to abide by it. That is immoral and unjust and I agree when the crown prosecutors state – “When they don’t get what they want, they simply legislate. In essence, they are abusing their legislative authority.” (statement by Michael Klaveren, president of B.C. Crown Cousel ASS. in the Metro Vancouver paper).
Ty:
A lot of young teachers do know what it’s like to work in those other types of workplaces, because in order to finanially survive, they take those types of jobs in the summer months. OR, they work them during the year as well. I have 3 friends who are TOC/Temp Contract teachers in Victoria, and all of them have other jobs to survive. This is also because, and I asked them this, for 1 year of “teacher training school”, they paid about $13,000. So their student loans are pretty high – even if they were able to have a job during that teacher training year, which they weren’t, becuase on top of teaching every day they had classes to go to at night, they wouldn’t have been able to earn that amount of cash with a part-time job.
Additionally, their program accepted 36 people out of 2,000 applicants. That doesn’t seem so easy to get in to to me.
Anybody else notice that Gordon Campbell and the Liberals re-neged on the Ready Recommendations and have now said they never said they would change the school act?